Disquettes Amiga

[Sigfrodi]

et  qu'ils viennent voir la différence entre la copie et l'original .Je vais pas prendre le risque de bousiller mes originaux pour faire un caps , il passerra par une copie.

Non, un CAPS doit être fait uniquement à partir d'une disquette originale sinon ça sert à rien. Ils verront la différence parce qu'ils analysent le dump brut. Ta disquette ne risque rien, elle n'est que lue.

Par contre si je leur envoie, je veux bien qu'ils me le renvoient après !

Je crois qu'ils renvoient le jeu après, mais il faudrait leur demander. Cela dit, faire voyager des disquettes comme ça, je ne le recommande pas. Ca m'étonnerai qu'elles fassent l'aller-retour en bon état.

Avant de faire un dump, faites une recherche dans le moteur de recherche du site de CAPS. Il y a quand même plus de 1500 jeux déjà dumpés... Par ailleurs ils y a un lien vers les jeux les plus activement recherchés, ceux-ci étant traités en priorité.

Si votre dump est accepté, il faudra attendre quelques mois le temps que le fichier IPF final soit créé par CAPS. Seul le fournisseur du jeu et CAPS disposet d'une copie de l'IPF. CAPS ne distribue pas ses fichiers pour des soucis de légalité mais ils ne s'opposent pas à ce que le détenteur d'un IPF le distribue.

[Kékidi]

Cela dit, faire voyager des disquettes comme ça, je ne le recommande pas. Ca m'étonnerai qu'elles fassent l'aller-retour en bon état.

Avec la poste, y'a des lettres spéciales pour matériel fragil mais elles sont plus chères bien sûr. Les enveloppes sont plus rembourrées et ne sont pas traîtées de la même façon que les lettres normales, elles doivent être sous régime spécial. Le problème est que si Julio doit payer l'aller-retour, ça risque de lui coûter cher.

[ness62]

Ils verront la différence parce qu'ils analysent le dump brut. Ta disquette ne risque rien, elle n'est que lue

Ben ils sont fort les mecs . Ils faisaient comment pour mettre un jeu original sur disquette (je parle ici de créer une disquette a la vente) le disque souple passait a la presse ou était copié avec des machines ou des lecteurs , je me le demande .

je vois pas comment ils peuvent voir çà . certainement lors de la copie, il y a un décallage de piste (j'y crois pas trop) ou alors une copie sur une disquette qui a servie a autre chose , >mais sur une neuve et bien vierge ? bah sur amiga nous avions les meilleurs copieurs pro du monde rien que le superbe xcopy-pro , une bête !!!

Mes jeux originaux n'ont passés en lecteur qu'une seule fois > lors de la copie sur disquette neuve , même si lors du caps il n'y a que lecture, je sécurise un max , mes originaux c'est mon >or< héhé. Pour le moment vais aller voir la liste des caps .

Sinon merci pour les liens et les infos . Les caps sont un plus pour l'émulation .

ROM

Fauit en voulair pour te faire confiance ness....

Lui alors!! je suis le rat le plus correct de la planète pffffffffff

elles doivent être sous régime spécial

arf , c'est les CRS qui font le transport en fourgon blindé .

Modifié le 15 mars 2004 par ness62

[Sigfrodi]

Ben ils sont fort  les mecs . Ils faisaient comment  pour mettre un jeu original sur disquette  (je parle ici de créer une disquette a la vente)  le disque souple passait  a la presse ou était copié avec des machines ou des lecteurs , je me le demande .

je vois pas comment ils peuvent voir çà  .

Les jeux étaient presssés en usine.

CAPS le voit parce que la structure physique du disque est enregistrée (rémanence magnétique, organisation des données, erreurs de lecture spécifique à une protection...). C'est là l'intérêt de CAPS, c'est d'avoir l'image prfaite d'un original, pas d'une copie.

[ness62]

ben ils doivent avoir du matos pour voir çà ou alors un logiciel qui controle la surface d'une disquette , c pire que les labos de la crime . En plus ils ne gagnent pas un rond , cela en vaut-il le coup ?

[Sigfrodi]

Outre les avantages que présente le format IPF sur les formats ADF, DMS ou ADZ, la sauvegarde du patrimoine Amiga me semble une chose très importante. C'est un peu de l'Histoire de l'informatique après tout. De telles entreprises seraient d'ailleurs bienvenues pour tous les autrse ordinateurs. CAPS envisage de s'intéresser au ST et au PC (disquettes) mais un truc similaire pour le CPC, le C64, les Atari XL/XE et tout ça ça me semblerait important aussi.

Seul regret au niveau de CAPS : ils ne font que les jeux, pas les applications. Il est vrai cela dit que les applications ne sont en général pas protégées physiquement sur le disque et que la plupart des ADF les concernant sont erlativement conformes aux originaux. Et puis, déjà s'atteler aux jeux Amiga est une sacrée tâche...

[ness62]

Les jeux amiga (originaux)

Total carnage A1200

Sim City A1200/A4000

Santa's christMas CAPER A500/+/600/1200

F117A du 500 au 4000

Combat 3 > Gunship 2000, Campaign,Historyline >Amiga tout model

B17 FlyingFortress , tous les amiga (je crois)

Kick Off amiga *ANCO

Championship golf

Great courts 2

Zool , je sais plus quelle version .

Je dois encore avoir BMX et d'autres jeux sur disquette . ou Cd de DP .

F-16 Combat Pilot >en test actuellement. >500/+/600/2000 (pas encore essayé sur le 1200 .

Battle of Britain>Amiga idem que si dessus .

Modifié le 16 mars 2004 par ness62

[Invité Guest]

ben ils doivent avoir du matos pour voir çà ou alors un logiciel qui controle la surface d'une disquette , c pire que les labos de la crime . En plus ils ne gagnent pas un rond , cela en vaut-il le coup ?

@ness62:

Firstly apologies for the English.

Basically, since drives are electromechanical devices, they each have their own characteristic "hiccups" when writing - a fingerprint if you like. You can think of it a bit like how intelligence agencies can match a printed sheet of paper to the exact printer that produced it - so yes, this type of thing may very well been used by govenment agencies - we have never heard of any cases though...

Our dumping software reads the disk in a rather special way, we do not only read the data, but also "how" that data was written - we can see these fingerprints.

From this it is possible to see a disk written by different machines. Hence if a disk was written by two different machines - we know it has been modified!

Also, since the commerical mastering machines had very high quality components, their "fingerprint" is very characteristic. So we know when a disk has been written on a commerical mastering machine (99.9% of games) and when it has been written on an Amiga.

Some games were actually written on an Amiga (a very very small amount - about 4-5 found so far of 1000's) and for these we need to verify they are good by:

1) Do many dumps appear to be written by the same machine?

2) Contact the developers of the game (see Little Computer People article in the knowledge base)

Also see here:

http://www.caps-project.org/articles.php?id=modified

[Sigfrodi]

Looks like our Guest is a member of the CAPS Team!

Thanks for all those informations, they are most welcome! In fact it looks like the CAPS tool extracts an awesome amount of informations from the floppies.

From what you wrote, it seems that CAPS gets in touch with many editors. How do they welcome the CAPS project? After all, even though the main aim of CAPS is not emulation, the relationship comes to the mind rather easily and many editors are quite awry about emulation. Are they willingful in giving informations or is it hard to convince them?

Anyway, I thank you for your great work! The Amiga testimony won't be a pack of poorly cracked games dumps (and they are numerous!). Beside, IPF + WHDLoad definitely rocks!

[fiath]

Hi, yes I am a member of CAPS. I just couldn't work out how to register on this forum.

Thank you very much for your support Sigfrodi, and everybody else on this board!

Yes, we do indeed talk to developers. Mostly they contact us, but on a couple of occasions we have taken the initiate when trying to find out something about a game we are preserving (for example, see here: http://www.caps-project.org/articles.php?id=a_lcp). Also, since a couple of us are ex-games developers, we also have friends that are still in the industry.

As above, most of the developers we have talked to contacted us. Usually about getting their games preserved. Definitely a good thing So yes, they do like what we are doing. In fact we have never spoken to any developers that do not like what we are doing - I suspect they do not exist

So, no, it is not hard to convince them since they are usually know about what we are doing anyway. I guess the alternative (cracked copies == "digital graffiti") makes it an easy choice for them.

Modifié le 3 juin 2004 par fiath

[The Jedi]

Damn french language

I'm glad to see you joining this discussion, not the less important for you. Sigfrodi and Ness62 are born with an Amiga in place of their feeding-bottle

Do developpers go in your way because of the nearly end of life of their games or do they simply agree to the principle without thinking about the financial side ?

By the way, i think their position is the best, as for their brand image as for the games themselves. Some editors (editors, not developpers) still play the game of "it's our games, don't touch".

Your initiative is a success, i think, i hope it will come to generalise to other systems.

[Sigfrodi]

Hi, yes I am a member of CAPS. I just couldn't work out how to register on this forum.

Welcome on Emu Nova, Fiath, I already know you from EAB (tiny, tiny world, but which Amiga user has never been there? )

I'm happy that most developers contacted are cool with CAPS. Most probably do they prefer a "pure" version of their games instead of defaced/cracked ADFs. The fact that CAPS do not redistribute the IPFs must have its importance and give them the impression that it is meant to real preservation of those floppies, not piracy. After all, it's their work, and all the efforts put in it, that would disappear...

What is more surprising to me is the fact that a CAPS counterpart project still doesn't exist for the ST (at least have I never heard about one). We know that ST floppies can be dumped with the CAPS tool (well only on Amiga for now), so there only lacks a plug-in for ST emulators and a dumping tool for the ST. You already explained that you didnt have time / technical knowledge of the ST enough to do it yourself. Is there nobody to be found in the Jackintosh scene to do that (or at least to participate)? What about the authors of STeem or SainT? Wouldn't they help developing the plug-in for example?

[Death Adder]

VIVE SIG

[fiath]

Damn french language

I'm glad to see you joining this discussion, not the less important for you. Sigfrodi and Ness62 are born with an Amiga in place of their feeding-bottle

Do developpers go in your way because of the nearly end of life of their games or do they simply agree to the principle without thinking about the financial side ?

By the way, i think their position is the best, as for their brand image as for the games themselves. Some editors (editors, not developpers) still play the game of "it's our games, don't touch".

Your initiative is a success, i think, i hope it will come to generalise to other systems.

Yeah, I am sorry, I didn't really really like my French teacher

Most developers contact us purely to:

1) Tell us they like what we are doing, and

2) Get any scans and IPF images for any games they did

3) Dump their games for us.

I am not entirely sure what "editors" are. I thought you guys meant developers. Do you mean publishers? An editor in English is the kind of person that does final review on some journalism, for example, an editor of a magazine.

The technology is completely generic (it's about magnetic removable media, and magnetic recording theory, not Amiga stuff) so yes, the project will move into other systems in the future. We just need more dumps of other systems disks

[fiath]

Welcome on Emu Nova, Fiath, I already know you from EAB (tiny, tiny world, but which Amiga user has never been there? )

I'm happy that most developers contacted are cool with CAPS. Most probably do they prefer a  "pure" version of their games instead of defaced/cracked ADFs. The fact that CAPS do not redistribute the IPFs must have its importance and give them the impression that it is meant to real preservation of those floppies, not piracy. After all, it's their work, and all the efforts put in it, that would disappear...

What is more surprising to me is the fact that a CAPS counterpart project still doesn't exist for the ST (at least have I never heard about one). We know that ST floppies can be dumped with the CAPS tool (well only on Amiga for now), so there only lacks a plug-in for ST emulators and a dumping tool for the ST. You already explained that you didnt have time / technical knowledge of the ST enough to do it yourself. Is there nobody to be found in the Jackintosh scene to do that (or at least to participate)? What about the authors of STeem or SainT? Wouldn't they help developing the plug-in for example?

Hi

You are of course exactly right about the developers I also think that since an ex-Amiga games developer leads the project (as well as another member) they think of us more like bothers than a fan-project. Which is nice of course!

The reason a CAPS counterpart does not exist for other systems is probably because it is such a complicated problem. This is also why there has not been something similar for the Amiga either. I wouldn't worry too much on this though, we will be making big pushes into other systems very soon.

One point I should make. An Amiga will be required to dump other systems floppies until we have the resources to build some dedicated dumping hardware. It is physically impossible to get the data we need on an ST, PC, etc. because of their floppy controllers.

We have talked to the authors of STeem, SainT and NetAtari, and all are interested in it. The thing required here is a very accurate emulation of the ST's floppy controller in order to be able to run copy protected games. We will be working with them to write this, and once it is done, we will be able to do some ST releases.

There will be no separate plugin though. As I said, the technology is generic, just because Amiga emulators use the current plugin, doesn't mean it only works with Amiga emulators. It works at the disk-level not the system level. So they will be working with the single "IPF plugin".

And yes, when we start doing other systems, we will be changing our name

Modifié le 4 juin 2004 par fiath

[Pouyou-pouyou]

Cool news ! Keep up the good work !

[Sigfrodi]

Most developers contact us purely to:

1) Tell us they like what we are doing, and

2) Get any scans and IPF images for any games they did

3) Dump their games for us.

That's great to see that there are still other people than businessmen lead only by greed in the computer gaming industry. Just joking, but such a cooperation is really great! Thinking about it, several publishers released some of their games to webshrines or websites (I especially think of Thalion, Lankhor, Origin with Ultima IV). It would be great to see IPFs distributed by them, as it would maybe help people knowing about CAPS.

Do you mean publishers?

Yep publishers, that's what we meant. Damn English language... I especially thought about it with the problems Back to the Roots had some times ago with a publisher association... However, BTTR claims that they only distribute commercial games with the authorization from their authors. I thought also about the firm opposition from LucasArts and from The Bitmap Brothers (about the "abandonwareship" of Speedball 2 -- fairly understandable as the game was just released for the GBA at that time) about abandonwares.

One point I should make. An Amiga will be required to dump other systems floppies until we have the resources to build some dedicated dumping hardware. It is physically impossible to get the data we need on an ST, PC, etc. because of their floppy controllers.

Hum, always those bloody controllers problems... That's most probably what would make the expansion of CAPS to other systems difficult... Death Adder, for example, won't buy an Amiga to dump his ST Games However, if he did, he could see how superior the Amiga is Could be an interisting way to promote the Amiga. Maybe with a customized hardcopier and external floppy drive... I had one on my ST, and was able to get working copies of original protected games such as Dungeon Master or Captive... So it looks like it could reproduce at least part of the physical datas. But I'm a complete ignorant in electronics and hardware development...

And yes, when we start doing other systems, we will be changing our name

I like the CAPS name! It looks like the CAPS-LOCK key name! Very computer freak!

[Invité Guest]

We do try to encourage publishers/developers to put up their games in IPF, but it is a very slow process. No least because they are always very busy.

Yes, it is a shame needing an Amiga to dump. Just unavoidable atm. We would have gone that way even if we were not Amiga people - because it is the only way without building custom hardware.

Hardware copies are useless for what we are doing I am afraid. It is better to think of them as VHS video copiers, each generation copy degrades until it stops working, and many games will not work at all right from the start. Last by not least, they require a tight synchronisation of two drives, you cannot hijack this data. For more info on this, see here:

http://www.caps-project.org/faq.php?question=cycloneprob

http://www.caps-project.org/faq.php?question=cyclone

The hardware we need to build cannot be a hack. It needs to be more or less a mini computer. It requires RAM, ROM and CPU (we will be using some kind of PIC if you know what that is). All this means it will be expensive to develop and take a lot of time. This is why we have not done it yet.

I like the CAPS name too Unfortunately it does not fit

[fiath]

Oops, forgot to log in again

Anyway, you can read a bit more about our plan for a hardware device here:

http://www.caps-project.org/articles.php?id=remaster

[Sigfrodi]

I would never have thought that such a complex device would be required... All because of floppy controllers!

[fiath]

Yes, unfortunately. It is possible to develop a simpler device, but there are two problems:

1) It won't work with all games/disk

2) They will introduce an "element of uncertainty", which is not a good idea for preservation!

Ultimately, we believe it is better to do something properly, or not doing it at all. We do not believe in half-working solutions.

[Sigfrodi]

In that case, half-working solution would be a non-working solution. Uncertainty doesn't have its place in preservation Although a complex device won't help developing the project for it requires technical knowledge from the one who wants to dump for CAPS, there is no real alternative I suppose... I hope there will be a CAPS for the ST or the C64 one day, it would be more than necessary. Anyway, there's still a lot of work for the Amiga... And it must already give you "a bit" of work!

[fiath]

We totally agree about uncertainty

Although the device itself will be complex (consisting of RAM, ROM, CPU, etc.) we are hoping it will be fairly simple to build, as it will use off-the-shelf parts. It will also very very simple to operate (and have upgradable firmware) However, building it will probably be a problem for novices. Amiga's are getting less common, and in some places in the world, getting hold of the required Amiga is very difficult.

We will be transforming into a more generic organisation, which will strive to preserve all the floppy disk media we can get our hands on in the near-ish future. Atari ST will likely be the next platform supported.

This does bring another point though. Many users of other platforms do not like the fact that they need an Amiga to dump disks. Even if the hardware is more expensive (to buy the components) they seem to rather a hardware device. Unfortunately, we still won't have it ready for quite some time, but at least people know it is on the agenda.

I think it is also likely they we will be considered a more serious organisation when we have our own dedicated hardware (for example, by entities that could give us a lot of help in several key ways). Annoying, but unfortunately a fact of life.

[Sigfrodi]

Shame on me for not answering to that post before, I saw it at work and didn't have time to answer, then I totally forgot. Hope you'll come back and read it, Fiath

The building of a specific device will certainly enhance the technical reputation of CAPS, though I think that the project is already considered very seriously and is very respected. Very few deny the interest of the project once properly explained, despite the restrictions (mainly the non distribtuion of IPF on CAPS website or FTP, which is the most common critic). The need for a device to be built will however dramatically limit the expansion of the project to other platforms I fear and the fact that an Amiga is required to dump PC or ST floppies seems incongrous to many people... Too bad, really...

Maybe another way to do woud be to gather some people inside the organisation ready to dump ST or PC floppies, with a credit line given to each platform to buy games and dump them. The problem then would be financial, donations would need to expand. Maybe would it be possible to negociate with some developers/publishers? And of course, the organization of the CAPS Team would be more complex and heavier...

[fiath]

A hardware device would certainly be nice. However, even if we were not Amiga people, it would be the only machine we could use to dump disks without building hardware. Perhaps it is better thought of "the dumping hardware". The DIY hardware will come, it is just going to take some time. No idea how long currently.

We have bought quite a few ST titles, and nearly all are dumped, we just need more.

I think many publishers/developer no longer have copies of their software, and combine that with it taking a lot of time to track them down makes me think the time is better spent on eBay/other contributors.